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	<title>Comments on: Update on UBC Student Union complaint to the UN</title>
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	<link>http://oncampus.macleans.ca/education/2009/11/26/update-on-ubc-student-union-complaint-to-the-un/</link>
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		<title>By: UBC Insiders &#124; Notes on the War Crimes of the BC Government</title>
		<link>http://oncampus.macleans.ca/education/2009/11/26/update-on-ubc-student-union-complaint-to-the-un/comment-page-1/#comment-19878</link>
		<dc:creator>UBC Insiders &#124; Notes on the War Crimes of the BC Government</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Sep 2010 18:43:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oncampus.macleans.ca/education/?p=9769#comment-19878</guid>
		<description>[...] said he looked forward to the chance to have a civil discussion about councillors’ concerns. Justin McElroy of the Ubyssey pressed him on why not have a civil discussion about the councillors’ [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] said he looked forward to the chance to have a civil discussion about councillors’ concerns. Justin McElroy of the Ubyssey pressed him on why not have a civil discussion about the councillors’ [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Higher Education as a Universal Right &#171; One Woman Academy</title>
		<link>http://oncampus.macleans.ca/education/2009/11/26/update-on-ubc-student-union-complaint-to-the-un/comment-page-1/#comment-14264</link>
		<dc:creator>Higher Education as a Universal Right &#171; One Woman Academy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Dec 2009 07:31:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oncampus.macleans.ca/education/?p=9769#comment-14264</guid>
		<description>[...] free education.&#8221; While the complaint has attracted considerable press attention in Canada, Maclean&#8217;s reported that some students are upset about the effort and are pushing for its reconsideration. It [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] free education.&#8221; While the complaint has attracted considerable press attention in Canada, Maclean&#8217;s reported that some students are upset about the effort and are pushing for its reconsideration. It [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Seriously?</title>
		<link>http://oncampus.macleans.ca/education/2009/11/26/update-on-ubc-student-union-complaint-to-the-un/comment-page-1/#comment-14229</link>
		<dc:creator>Seriously?</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Nov 2009 01:36:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oncampus.macleans.ca/education/?p=9769#comment-14229</guid>
		<description>Having been involved in post secondary education in two different provinces, I really have only one thing to say ... grow up.  I realise tuition costs are high but in all honesty, in many provinces they are higher, not to mention in the States were they are astronomical.  

A UN challenge to make tuition costs lower?  Personally I would prefer if the AMS didn&#039;t waste money like it&#039;s going out of business.  A major chunk of our tuition fees don&#039;t go to university credits but to Recreation and Athletic fees (while providing a tiny free gym on campus), three separate AMS funds (SUB renewal, the AMS fee, and the AMS Student Services fee), and the list goes on.  The AMS is only slightly less guilty of nickel and diming the students as the university is but at least the University is giving us a degree at the end.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Having been involved in post secondary education in two different provinces, I really have only one thing to say &#8230; grow up.  I realise tuition costs are high but in all honesty, in many provinces they are higher, not to mention in the States were they are astronomical.  </p>
<p>A UN challenge to make tuition costs lower?  Personally I would prefer if the AMS didn&#8217;t waste money like it&#8217;s going out of business.  A major chunk of our tuition fees don&#8217;t go to university credits but to Recreation and Athletic fees (while providing a tiny free gym on campus), three separate AMS funds (SUB renewal, the AMS fee, and the AMS Student Services fee), and the list goes on.  The AMS is only slightly less guilty of nickel and diming the students as the university is but at least the University is giving us a degree at the end.</p>
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		<title>By: PoorStudent</title>
		<link>http://oncampus.macleans.ca/education/2009/11/26/update-on-ubc-student-union-complaint-to-the-un/comment-page-1/#comment-14212</link>
		<dc:creator>PoorStudent</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Nov 2009 21:00:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oncampus.macleans.ca/education/?p=9769#comment-14212</guid>
		<description>If you&#039;ve ever sat in on council, I think its pretty clear why Chu and Frederick had to go this way, as council, despite representing the student body, rarely seems to make this their concern. 

But otherwise, I would just like to mention a major flaw in the proposed impeachment mentioned by Frederick and Chu in their open letter to council: 

We also find it curious that we have been targeted exclusively on this issue by some Council members. It is important to note that we raised the topic of the UN complaint several times at our Executive Committee meetings and that VP Finance, Tom Dvorak and VP Academic and University Affairs, Johannes Rebane signed the contract with Pivot Legal Society to go forward with the complaint. We believe that if any call is made for our resignations, they must be coupled with a call for the resignations of Tom Dvorak and Johannes Rebane.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you&#8217;ve ever sat in on council, I think its pretty clear why Chu and Frederick had to go this way, as council, despite representing the student body, rarely seems to make this their concern. </p>
<p>But otherwise, I would just like to mention a major flaw in the proposed impeachment mentioned by Frederick and Chu in their open letter to council: </p>
<p>We also find it curious that we have been targeted exclusively on this issue by some Council members. It is important to note that we raised the topic of the UN complaint several times at our Executive Committee meetings and that VP Finance, Tom Dvorak and VP Academic and University Affairs, Johannes Rebane signed the contract with Pivot Legal Society to go forward with the complaint. We believe that if any call is made for our resignations, they must be coupled with a call for the resignations of Tom Dvorak and Johannes Rebane.</p>
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		<title>By: Kalamity</title>
		<link>http://oncampus.macleans.ca/education/2009/11/26/update-on-ubc-student-union-complaint-to-the-un/comment-page-1/#comment-14211</link>
		<dc:creator>Kalamity</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Nov 2009 20:35:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oncampus.macleans.ca/education/?p=9769#comment-14211</guid>
		<description>Before withdrawing the complaint one hopes that they will first check what students want - and particularly what students from working class backgrounds want. After all, the financial barriers to education arent really that serious for middle and upper class students, but are crushing for working class students and actually keep a lot of people from ever attending university. I think the complaint is entirely appropriate - Canada has been violating its obligations under treaties that it helped to write and that it ratified. We should complain.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Before withdrawing the complaint one hopes that they will first check what students want &#8211; and particularly what students from working class backgrounds want. After all, the financial barriers to education arent really that serious for middle and upper class students, but are crushing for working class students and actually keep a lot of people from ever attending university. I think the complaint is entirely appropriate &#8211; Canada has been violating its obligations under treaties that it helped to write and that it ratified. We should complain.</p>
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		<title>By: Marie Burgoyne</title>
		<link>http://oncampus.macleans.ca/education/2009/11/26/update-on-ubc-student-union-complaint-to-the-un/comment-page-1/#comment-14201</link>
		<dc:creator>Marie Burgoyne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Nov 2009 07:16:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oncampus.macleans.ca/education/?p=9769#comment-14201</guid>
		<description>If the actions taken were indeed as clandestine as alleged, which to me is doubtful in such a case where the issue has been discussed at least somewhat, then Fredrick and Chu should be held accountable by means of impeachment.  However, for the most part I agree with &quot;Al&quot; that the motion appears straightforward on the surface, but it lacks the necessary itemisation as to how and when to pursue it.  I am inclined to believe that Fredrick and Chu were mistakenly acting to fill in the holes as they saw fit in order to bring the motion to fruition.  I think that they believed they were acting within their mandates in the best interest of the AMS and all of its members; whether or not they were is another question entirely.

Call me naive, but I do not see any malice or power grabbing here.  I see a simple case of the inexperienced jumping the gun and over-reacting, rather than disrespecting the AMS as a body and its procedures.  Fredrick and Chu made a stupid mistake by going straight to the UN, as there must have been less drastic routes, yes.  That said, it may have ultimately been what the AMS as a body was forced to do, after exhausting all other avenues, but we&#039;ll never know.  I fear that the real issue of unfair tuition and funding allocation will be lost in this rather soap-operatic controversy; something has to be done, and if that means going to the UN eventually, collectively, unbelievably, then so be it.

Impeachment, whether it is actual or symbolic depending on what the Societies Act allows, for sheer stupidity is certainly not unprecedented.  Some may even call it common.  However, I for one would much more trust existing administration who are appropriately contrite and chastised in the court of public opinion, and therefore more likely to make wiser decisions in the future, to an unknown quantity that may well develop a bit of a saviour complex after such a debacle.  Still, I admit that it remains to be seen if Fredrick and Chu made an honest mistake or a dishonest one.  Call me a bleeding heart, but I believe in being given the opportunity to demonstrate learning from one&#039;s honest mistakes, the more colossal the better.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If the actions taken were indeed as clandestine as alleged, which to me is doubtful in such a case where the issue has been discussed at least somewhat, then Fredrick and Chu should be held accountable by means of impeachment.  However, for the most part I agree with &#8220;Al&#8221; that the motion appears straightforward on the surface, but it lacks the necessary itemisation as to how and when to pursue it.  I am inclined to believe that Fredrick and Chu were mistakenly acting to fill in the holes as they saw fit in order to bring the motion to fruition.  I think that they believed they were acting within their mandates in the best interest of the AMS and all of its members; whether or not they were is another question entirely.</p>
<p>Call me naive, but I do not see any malice or power grabbing here.  I see a simple case of the inexperienced jumping the gun and over-reacting, rather than disrespecting the AMS as a body and its procedures.  Fredrick and Chu made a stupid mistake by going straight to the UN, as there must have been less drastic routes, yes.  That said, it may have ultimately been what the AMS as a body was forced to do, after exhausting all other avenues, but we&#8217;ll never know.  I fear that the real issue of unfair tuition and funding allocation will be lost in this rather soap-operatic controversy; something has to be done, and if that means going to the UN eventually, collectively, unbelievably, then so be it.</p>
<p>Impeachment, whether it is actual or symbolic depending on what the Societies Act allows, for sheer stupidity is certainly not unprecedented.  Some may even call it common.  However, I for one would much more trust existing administration who are appropriately contrite and chastised in the court of public opinion, and therefore more likely to make wiser decisions in the future, to an unknown quantity that may well develop a bit of a saviour complex after such a debacle.  Still, I admit that it remains to be seen if Fredrick and Chu made an honest mistake or a dishonest one.  Call me a bleeding heart, but I believe in being given the opportunity to demonstrate learning from one&#8217;s honest mistakes, the more colossal the better.</p>
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		<title>By: Al</title>
		<link>http://oncampus.macleans.ca/education/2009/11/26/update-on-ubc-student-union-complaint-to-the-un/comment-page-1/#comment-14182</link>
		<dc:creator>Al</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Nov 2009 20:01:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oncampus.macleans.ca/education/?p=9769#comment-14182</guid>
		<description>“The AMS will pursue a legal battle with the Province on the basis that the recent Education funding cuts are against the UN charter.”

Seems pretty straightforward to me...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>“The AMS will pursue a legal battle with the Province on the basis that the recent Education funding cuts are against the UN charter.”</p>
<p>Seems pretty straightforward to me&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Alex Lougheed</title>
		<link>http://oncampus.macleans.ca/education/2009/11/26/update-on-ubc-student-union-complaint-to-the-un/comment-page-1/#comment-14171</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex Lougheed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Nov 2009 13:15:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oncampus.macleans.ca/education/?p=9769#comment-14171</guid>
		<description>See, during my tenure, when we almost considered entering into legal action, we held at least two hours worth of executive committee discussions on the issue and I had the court give us more time to decide.

In the end, we decided saying no (against my desire, actually), but being outweighed by larger consensus is kind of a principle of democracy, isn&#039;t it?

For reference, this was whether or not to intervene in the Student Evaluations of Teaching case between the UBC Faculty Association and UBC proper.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>See, during my tenure, when we almost considered entering into legal action, we held at least two hours worth of executive committee discussions on the issue and I had the court give us more time to decide.</p>
<p>In the end, we decided saying no (against my desire, actually), but being outweighed by larger consensus is kind of a principle of democracy, isn&#8217;t it?</p>
<p>For reference, this was whether or not to intervene in the Student Evaluations of Teaching case between the UBC Faculty Association and UBC proper.</p>
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		<title>By: Gossip guy</title>
		<link>http://oncampus.macleans.ca/education/2009/11/26/update-on-ubc-student-union-complaint-to-the-un/comment-page-1/#comment-14161</link>
		<dc:creator>Gossip guy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Nov 2009 03:36:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oncampus.macleans.ca/education/?p=9769#comment-14161</guid>
		<description>Thank you for this article Justin! 

This situation is completely ridiculous... and thank you for SOMEONE finally pointing out the $20 000 or so that Tristan made as an AMS exec. It does mention in the affidavit that his work was &quot;mostly unpaid&quot; though... i guess it&#039;s a very loose translation of &quot;mostly.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for this article Justin! </p>
<p>This situation is completely ridiculous&#8230; and thank you for SOMEONE finally pointing out the $20 000 or so that Tristan made as an AMS exec. It does mention in the affidavit that his work was &#8220;mostly unpaid&#8221; though&#8230; i guess it&#8217;s a very loose translation of &#8220;mostly.&#8221;</p>
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