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	<title>Comments on: Universities can&#8217;t save the world</title>
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		<title>By: Servant</title>
		<link>http://oncampus.macleans.ca/education/2008/05/28/universities-cant-save-the-world/comment-page-1/#comment-3378</link>
		<dc:creator>Servant</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Jun 2008 13:54:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oncampus.macleans.ca/education/2008/05/28/universities-cant-save-the-world/#comment-3378</guid>
		<description>Unfortunately what happens when unsanctoned clubs use University facilities, they do so at risk of expulsion. This happened at U of C when the Pro-life club tried to demonstrate and were told by administration they could only do so from an off campus venue, ie across the street from the university. Serveral othe Universities have emgaged in similar sanctions. I am not an expert but the issue should not be the freedom of the clubs to exist. It should be the imposition of being black listed by student unions elected to represent all students.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Unfortunately what happens when unsanctoned clubs use University facilities, they do so at risk of expulsion. This happened at U of C when the Pro-life club tried to demonstrate and were told by administration they could only do so from an off campus venue, ie across the street from the university. Serveral othe Universities have emgaged in similar sanctions. I am not an expert but the issue should not be the freedom of the clubs to exist. It should be the imposition of being black listed by student unions elected to represent all students.</p>
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		<title>By: Philippe Marchand</title>
		<link>http://oncampus.macleans.ca/education/2008/05/28/universities-cant-save-the-world/comment-page-1/#comment-3372</link>
		<dc:creator>Philippe Marchand</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 May 2008 21:50:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oncampus.macleans.ca/education/2008/05/28/universities-cant-save-the-world/#comment-3372</guid>
		<description>actually, it&#039;s not a compromise. it&#039;s upholding two different freedoms at the same time. sorry for the miswording (I can&#039;t edit my own post).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>actually, it&#8217;s not a compromise. it&#8217;s upholding two different freedoms at the same time. sorry for the miswording (I can&#8217;t edit my own post).</p>
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		<title>By: Philippe Marchand</title>
		<link>http://oncampus.macleans.ca/education/2008/05/28/universities-cant-save-the-world/comment-page-1/#comment-3371</link>
		<dc:creator>Philippe Marchand</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 May 2008 21:50:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oncampus.macleans.ca/education/2008/05/28/universities-cant-save-the-world/#comment-3371</guid>
		<description>To answer Deepthinker I would suggest that the right to use space or demonstrate, etc. should be granted to all students, club status or not. 

Then the student union (or university, for that matter) can choose or not to sponsor a particular event. If they choose not to, the pro-life group can get funding from an outside organization, which should not be difficult.

This is a compromise to give the student union the choice to spend or not student levy funds, while not barring access to space or limiting speech.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To answer Deepthinker I would suggest that the right to use space or demonstrate, etc. should be granted to all students, club status or not. </p>
<p>Then the student union (or university, for that matter) can choose or not to sponsor a particular event. If they choose not to, the pro-life group can get funding from an outside organization, which should not be difficult.</p>
<p>This is a compromise to give the student union the choice to spend or not student levy funds, while not barring access to space or limiting speech.</p>
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		<title>By: Deepthinker</title>
		<link>http://oncampus.macleans.ca/education/2008/05/28/universities-cant-save-the-world/comment-page-1/#comment-3369</link>
		<dc:creator>Deepthinker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 May 2008 20:52:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oncampus.macleans.ca/education/2008/05/28/universities-cant-save-the-world/#comment-3369</guid>
		<description>The reason why this is such a big issue is that without this club status a club is not allowed to have a speaker, have meetings, book a room, do a demonstration, get funds or anything.  Funds is teh least of the issue but in essence by not having club status you have no rights as a group to do activities on campus which is in essence an indirect silencing. 

These student unions are saying that they do not want the message on campus.  As such that is why they are trying to ban Pro-Life clubs because they are scared that people are actually standing up to them and what they believe in.  I really hope that society stands up and says no to this before they start going on to silence something else.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The reason why this is such a big issue is that without this club status a club is not allowed to have a speaker, have meetings, book a room, do a demonstration, get funds or anything.  Funds is teh least of the issue but in essence by not having club status you have no rights as a group to do activities on campus which is in essence an indirect silencing. </p>
<p>These student unions are saying that they do not want the message on campus.  As such that is why they are trying to ban Pro-Life clubs because they are scared that people are actually standing up to them and what they believe in.  I really hope that society stands up and says no to this before they start going on to silence something else.</p>
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		<title>By: Karen Krisfalusi</title>
		<link>http://oncampus.macleans.ca/education/2008/05/28/universities-cant-save-the-world/comment-page-1/#comment-3368</link>
		<dc:creator>Karen Krisfalusi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 May 2008 20:49:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oncampus.macleans.ca/education/2008/05/28/universities-cant-save-the-world/#comment-3368</guid>
		<description>Being political at a University is about criticizing your professors and also about engaging them.  The students who have earned your label of &#039;Activist&#039; don&#039;t actually do a helluvalot that is dangerously political.  I must comment also, that your contrasts about what a University should or should not be, don&#039;t say very much.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Being political at a University is about criticizing your professors and also about engaging them.  The students who have earned your label of &#8216;Activist&#8217; don&#8217;t actually do a helluvalot that is dangerously political.  I must comment also, that your contrasts about what a University should or should not be, don&#8217;t say very much.</p>
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		<title>By: More Coverage on York Federation of Students&#8217; &#8220;activism&#8221; &#171; UofT Students for Life</title>
		<link>http://oncampus.macleans.ca/education/2008/05/28/universities-cant-save-the-world/comment-page-1/#comment-3359</link>
		<dc:creator>More Coverage on York Federation of Students&#8217; &#8220;activism&#8221; &#171; UofT Students for Life</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 May 2008 14:53:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oncampus.macleans.ca/education/2008/05/28/universities-cant-save-the-world/#comment-3359</guid>
		<description>[...] Memo to activisits: universities are for teaching, not preaching [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Memo to activisits: universities are for teaching, not preaching [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Meghan</title>
		<link>http://oncampus.macleans.ca/education/2008/05/28/universities-cant-save-the-world/comment-page-1/#comment-3335</link>
		<dc:creator>Meghan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 May 2008 13:15:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oncampus.macleans.ca/education/2008/05/28/universities-cant-save-the-world/#comment-3335</guid>
		<description>Sounds like they have a bunch of Stalinists operating over at York U. I don&#039;t know what&#039;s worse - idiot anti-choicers or idiot censors. The real world  must be smacking its lips in anticipation of their appearance in it. Look for one the these wing-nuts to be running the CFS in a couple of years.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sounds like they have a bunch of Stalinists operating over at York U. I don&#8217;t know what&#8217;s worse &#8211; idiot anti-choicers or idiot censors. The real world  must be smacking its lips in anticipation of their appearance in it. Look for one the these wing-nuts to be running the CFS in a couple of years.</p>
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		<title>By: Philippe Marchand</title>
		<link>http://oncampus.macleans.ca/education/2008/05/28/universities-cant-save-the-world/comment-page-1/#comment-3293</link>
		<dc:creator>Philippe Marchand</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 May 2008 01:10:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oncampus.macleans.ca/education/2008/05/28/universities-cant-save-the-world/#comment-3293</guid>
		<description>I would note that the separation of powers between the students&#039; union and university depends from place to place. At the University of Ottawa for example, being a club recognized by the students&#039; union gives you guaranteed room/infotable bookings, space to post in one building (UCentre), and possibilities of funding. The university however can also provide funding, and it has to approve posting outside the UCentre, as well as any other material being distributed on campus.

I think one way to get around the room booking problem would be for universities to allow any student to book a room at no cost, just as they allow any professor to book a room at no cost. After all we all pay for these rooms through tuition. 

For approving posters and leaflets, it is important that the university and students&#039; union have clear guidelines which allow freedom of expression to the extent permitted Canadian law. (I have presented a motion to that effect at both our local AGM and at the CFS-Ontario AGM last year, both were adopted)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would note that the separation of powers between the students&#8217; union and university depends from place to place. At the University of Ottawa for example, being a club recognized by the students&#8217; union gives you guaranteed room/infotable bookings, space to post in one building (UCentre), and possibilities of funding. The university however can also provide funding, and it has to approve posting outside the UCentre, as well as any other material being distributed on campus.</p>
<p>I think one way to get around the room booking problem would be for universities to allow any student to book a room at no cost, just as they allow any professor to book a room at no cost. After all we all pay for these rooms through tuition. </p>
<p>For approving posters and leaflets, it is important that the university and students&#8217; union have clear guidelines which allow freedom of expression to the extent permitted Canadian law. (I have presented a motion to that effect at both our local AGM and at the CFS-Ontario AGM last year, both were adopted)</p>
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		<title>By: Philippe Marchand</title>
		<link>http://oncampus.macleans.ca/education/2008/05/28/universities-cant-save-the-world/comment-page-1/#comment-3291</link>
		<dc:creator>Philippe Marchand</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 May 2008 01:03:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oncampus.macleans.ca/education/2008/05/28/universities-cant-save-the-world/#comment-3291</guid>
		<description>&quot;I never said that learning for its own sake is morally higher than learning for a purpose. But, the advancement of knowledge is what universities do, and though we may attach value to the byproducts of higher education, that doesn’t mean that is what universities are for.&quot;

I understood that this is what you meant, but in my opinion this is a moral (or political, which is similar) judgement on the purpose of the university. 

Also, I feel this might be a naive and irrational position to hold. If you have a look at what the university ACTUALLY does, you see that a series of political/economical/social influences contribute to determine the teaching and research program of universities. Knowledge is always researched/produced with certain motivations in mind. 

---

Jeff brings an interesting point:
&quot;On that basis, students are entirely justified in promoting social change within their institutions not because it’s the one and only place to do that, but rather because it’s simply where they happen to be.&quot;

I agree with Jeff and I would add that I don&#039;t see why people have to be activists (or more generally, simply be concerned citizens) on weekends and evenings. This applies as well to salaried professionals, to students, etc. If you spend most of your waking hours in your workplace/university, this is why you should be creating social change first. A local injustice is an injustice, and people learn more from local events than distant events. You have way more influence on your immediate environment than on global politics.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I never said that learning for its own sake is morally higher than learning for a purpose. But, the advancement of knowledge is what universities do, and though we may attach value to the byproducts of higher education, that doesn’t mean that is what universities are for.&#8221;</p>
<p>I understood that this is what you meant, but in my opinion this is a moral (or political, which is similar) judgement on the purpose of the university. </p>
<p>Also, I feel this might be a naive and irrational position to hold. If you have a look at what the university ACTUALLY does, you see that a series of political/economical/social influences contribute to determine the teaching and research program of universities. Knowledge is always researched/produced with certain motivations in mind. </p>
<p>&#8212;</p>
<p>Jeff brings an interesting point:<br />
&#8220;On that basis, students are entirely justified in promoting social change within their institutions not because it’s the one and only place to do that, but rather because it’s simply where they happen to be.&#8221;</p>
<p>I agree with Jeff and I would add that I don&#8217;t see why people have to be activists (or more generally, simply be concerned citizens) on weekends and evenings. This applies as well to salaried professionals, to students, etc. If you spend most of your waking hours in your workplace/university, this is why you should be creating social change first. A local injustice is an injustice, and people learn more from local events than distant events. You have way more influence on your immediate environment than on global politics.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff Rybak</title>
		<link>http://oncampus.macleans.ca/education/2008/05/28/universities-cant-save-the-world/comment-page-1/#comment-3290</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff Rybak</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 May 2008 01:03:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oncampus.macleans.ca/education/2008/05/28/universities-cant-save-the-world/#comment-3290</guid>
		<description>I understand Sarah&#039;s position, but I think I could correct her on a couple points.  First, the issue isn&#039;t recognition by the university itself.  It&#039;s recognition by the students&#039; union.  I know it can seem like there&#039;s little enough difference, but I think Carson&#039;s point isn&#039;t about (certainly isn&#039;t only about) the attitudes exhibited by students seeking to organize in their club, but also by the students sitting on the board of the union that sought to deny them.

Second, being an official &quot;club&quot; does confer important advantages and benefits.  The ability to participate in a clubs&#039; fair, for example.  Funding, which Carson mentioned.  The right to book rooms on campus for meetings, which is perhaps the most critical for many groups seeking to organize.  I entirely agree that one&#039;s entire identity shouldn&#039;t be dependent on official extension of these benefits, but they are significant benefits nonetheless.

Coming from a union environment, I understand why &quot;official&quot; status as a club is meaningful.  We don&#039;t have the resources to give funding, allocate rooms, or even allow space at an annual clubs&#039; fair for every individual who might ask for it.  Therefore, there&#039;s a process to get recognized.  Using that process as a means to silence groups you dislike is a dangerous game.  Yet as Sarah justly points out, as soon as you get into it you are unavoidably into it.  No one wants the White Supremacist Club on campus.  So judgment is unavoidable.  But beyond what&#039;s already in the university&#039;s code of conduct (or similar) I don&#039;t think a union should go around denying recognition and resources to groups that are otherwise allowable.

Again, I know it can seem like a funny line, that a students&#039; union has this kind of power at all.  But as soon as you have a room to book or a dollar to allocate, you start to need rules about how you book it and how you allocate it.  I fully respect and understand why the anti-abortion group, seeking to organize, would make an issue of that.  Where any amount of power exists, it&#039;s valid and oftentimes important to ensure it&#039;s used responsibly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I understand Sarah&#8217;s position, but I think I could correct her on a couple points.  First, the issue isn&#8217;t recognition by the university itself.  It&#8217;s recognition by the students&#8217; union.  I know it can seem like there&#8217;s little enough difference, but I think Carson&#8217;s point isn&#8217;t about (certainly isn&#8217;t only about) the attitudes exhibited by students seeking to organize in their club, but also by the students sitting on the board of the union that sought to deny them.</p>
<p>Second, being an official &#8220;club&#8221; does confer important advantages and benefits.  The ability to participate in a clubs&#8217; fair, for example.  Funding, which Carson mentioned.  The right to book rooms on campus for meetings, which is perhaps the most critical for many groups seeking to organize.  I entirely agree that one&#8217;s entire identity shouldn&#8217;t be dependent on official extension of these benefits, but they are significant benefits nonetheless.</p>
<p>Coming from a union environment, I understand why &#8220;official&#8221; status as a club is meaningful.  We don&#8217;t have the resources to give funding, allocate rooms, or even allow space at an annual clubs&#8217; fair for every individual who might ask for it.  Therefore, there&#8217;s a process to get recognized.  Using that process as a means to silence groups you dislike is a dangerous game.  Yet as Sarah justly points out, as soon as you get into it you are unavoidably into it.  No one wants the White Supremacist Club on campus.  So judgment is unavoidable.  But beyond what&#8217;s already in the university&#8217;s code of conduct (or similar) I don&#8217;t think a union should go around denying recognition and resources to groups that are otherwise allowable.</p>
<p>Again, I know it can seem like a funny line, that a students&#8217; union has this kind of power at all.  But as soon as you have a room to book or a dollar to allocate, you start to need rules about how you book it and how you allocate it.  I fully respect and understand why the anti-abortion group, seeking to organize, would make an issue of that.  Where any amount of power exists, it&#8217;s valid and oftentimes important to ensure it&#8217;s used responsibly.</p>
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