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	<title>Comments on: From college to university</title>
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		<title>By: Jade Mclean</title>
		<link>http://oncampus.macleans.ca/education/2008/04/23/from-college-to-university/comment-page-1/#comment-14263</link>
		<dc:creator>Jade Mclean</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Dec 2009 07:24:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oncampus.macleans.ca/education/2008/04/23/from-college-to-university/#comment-14263</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t see why the university- colleges needed to be granted university status. They say because the name &quot;university-college&quot;, it is hard for their under grads to get accepted to grad programs. I don&#039;t think the solution is in the name. They should work harder at making a name in the academic world for themselves. Perfect example is BCIT, at the graduate school fair at UBC most US universities new of BCIT and their amazing reputation. Even three Ivy league universities were well-aware of BCIT. And BCIT has no university name close to it. It is up to the school and the students to create awareness and rep of the school-- not the government tax payers money. 

Jade M</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t see why the university- colleges needed to be granted university status. They say because the name &#8220;university-college&#8221;, it is hard for their under grads to get accepted to grad programs. I don&#8217;t think the solution is in the name. They should work harder at making a name in the academic world for themselves. Perfect example is BCIT, at the graduate school fair at UBC most US universities new of BCIT and their amazing reputation. Even three Ivy league universities were well-aware of BCIT. And BCIT has no university name close to it. It is up to the school and the students to create awareness and rep of the school&#8211; not the government tax payers money. </p>
<p>Jade M</p>
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		<title>By: Robert Adamoski</title>
		<link>http://oncampus.macleans.ca/education/2008/04/23/from-college-to-university/comment-page-1/#comment-2657</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Adamoski</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Apr 2008 06:59:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oncampus.macleans.ca/education/2008/04/23/from-college-to-university/#comment-2657</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s good to see that this discussion has come around to acknowledge the vibrant research culture that has developed in B.C.&#039;s (now former)university-colleges. 

The importance of learning in these institutions has shaped the research undertaken, but not at the expense of the quality of the work, nor its ability to compete nationally. For example, Kwantlen has had notable success with federal(including SSHRC and CFI), provincial (including BCKDF and LEEF)and private funders. There is great potential, with the new designations announced last week, to grow this capacity, and to thereby further innovation and vibrant learning at Kwantlen and at other universities.

Regards,

RA</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s good to see that this discussion has come around to acknowledge the vibrant research culture that has developed in B.C.&#8217;s (now former)university-colleges. </p>
<p>The importance of learning in these institutions has shaped the research undertaken, but not at the expense of the quality of the work, nor its ability to compete nationally. For example, Kwantlen has had notable success with federal(including SSHRC and CFI), provincial (including BCKDF and LEEF)and private funders. There is great potential, with the new designations announced last week, to grow this capacity, and to thereby further innovation and vibrant learning at Kwantlen and at other universities.</p>
<p>Regards,</p>
<p>RA</p>
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		<title>By: Robert Clift</title>
		<link>http://oncampus.macleans.ca/education/2008/04/23/from-college-to-university/comment-page-1/#comment-2622</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Clift</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Apr 2008 02:05:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oncampus.macleans.ca/education/2008/04/23/from-college-to-university/#comment-2622</guid>
		<description>Hi John,

Thanks for your comment.

These types of issues are difficult to deal with in a few short sentences and consequently when things get boiled down to a quote in an article, the richness is lost.

Carson indicated to me that a university-college president (I don&#039;t recall that he attributed to the Kwantlen president, but my memory may be wrong) had said that the U-Cs were &quot;universities in all but name&quot;. As reported, I said that was a &quot;bit of stretch&quot;. I said that the traditional universities were had a culture with a bedrock foundation in the spirit of research and inquiry and that the U-Cs were institutions based primarily in a culture of teaching and instruction.

I went on to say that the U-Cs had many faculty members who were excellent researchers and had received competitive grants from the national granting councils, but that the institutions were still predominantly driven by a teaching mission (and by this I meant the whole institution and not just the academic part of it). I added, as mentioned in my comment above, that it was certainly possible that the U-Cs could develop that culture of inquiry (meaning a predominant culture) but that they would certainly need the funding support to do so.

I added that with the announcements this week that the definition of &quot;university&quot; has now changed in British Columbia and that perhaps CUFA BC&#039;s position was too traditional in light of these changes and changes elsewhere in the world.

The comments also need to be understood in the context of CUFA BC&#039;s efforts since 2002 -- when the government passed the Degree Authorization Act allowing private degree providers in British Columbia -- to hold government to a high standard when it allows a private institution to call itself a university. Work that was done, in part, to protect the U-Cs and the colleges from unfair competition from private providers getting an easy ride.

While we had some success in that direction, since the adoption of the Degree Authorization Act government has twice, with the agreement of the NDP opposition, overrode its own legislation to allow private institutions to call themselves universities without going through the formal review process. Mistakes that have already bit government on the butt.

So all of this is part of a much larger and longer discussion and debate about what is a degree? what is degree-level education? and what is a university? These are important issues to all academics and should be important issues to government, which is why we continue to raise them. We would be ill serving our members if we didn&#039;t. Now that government has taken its decision about these institutions, these debate on these questions takes a different turn in British Columbia.

By the way, CUFA BC was part of the governance reform effort in the 1990s that lead to the creation of Education Councils at the U-Cs, colleges and institutes (an effort initiated and led by then CIEA, now FPSE). Among other things we did to assist that effort was to pressure government to ensure that the U-Cs had a mandate for community-centered scholarly activity. 

Moreover, we facilitated CIEA&#039;s original provisional membership in CAUT and then fought on the floor of CAUT Council to create the category of membership that allowed CIEA to become a full member of CAUT. We also took a leadership role this past fall in amending the CAUT membership bylaws to keep CAUT focused on predominantly academic institutions (a move that was unpopular with our FPSE colleagues).

So, as I said in the beginning, there is a history and richness to all of this that is impossible to convey in the confines of a newspaper or magazine article. That doesn&#039;t mean we shouldn&#039;t try, because these are important issues.

In any event, as I noted above, the decisions have been made for BC and so it&#039;s time to move on and focus on ensuring that the new universities get the resources they need to achieve their full potential. Just today at a faculty association meeting at UVic I was talking about the interesting approach TRU has taken to facilitate scholarly activity across all programs -- academic, technology and career alike.

I hope all this helps you to better understand where we are coming from.

Cheers,

Rob</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi John,</p>
<p>Thanks for your comment.</p>
<p>These types of issues are difficult to deal with in a few short sentences and consequently when things get boiled down to a quote in an article, the richness is lost.</p>
<p>Carson indicated to me that a university-college president (I don&#8217;t recall that he attributed to the Kwantlen president, but my memory may be wrong) had said that the U-Cs were &#8220;universities in all but name&#8221;. As reported, I said that was a &#8220;bit of stretch&#8221;. I said that the traditional universities were had a culture with a bedrock foundation in the spirit of research and inquiry and that the U-Cs were institutions based primarily in a culture of teaching and instruction.</p>
<p>I went on to say that the U-Cs had many faculty members who were excellent researchers and had received competitive grants from the national granting councils, but that the institutions were still predominantly driven by a teaching mission (and by this I meant the whole institution and not just the academic part of it). I added, as mentioned in my comment above, that it was certainly possible that the U-Cs could develop that culture of inquiry (meaning a predominant culture) but that they would certainly need the funding support to do so.</p>
<p>I added that with the announcements this week that the definition of &#8220;university&#8221; has now changed in British Columbia and that perhaps CUFA BC&#8217;s position was too traditional in light of these changes and changes elsewhere in the world.</p>
<p>The comments also need to be understood in the context of CUFA BC&#8217;s efforts since 2002 &#8212; when the government passed the Degree Authorization Act allowing private degree providers in British Columbia &#8212; to hold government to a high standard when it allows a private institution to call itself a university. Work that was done, in part, to protect the U-Cs and the colleges from unfair competition from private providers getting an easy ride.</p>
<p>While we had some success in that direction, since the adoption of the Degree Authorization Act government has twice, with the agreement of the NDP opposition, overrode its own legislation to allow private institutions to call themselves universities without going through the formal review process. Mistakes that have already bit government on the butt.</p>
<p>So all of this is part of a much larger and longer discussion and debate about what is a degree? what is degree-level education? and what is a university? These are important issues to all academics and should be important issues to government, which is why we continue to raise them. We would be ill serving our members if we didn&#8217;t. Now that government has taken its decision about these institutions, these debate on these questions takes a different turn in British Columbia.</p>
<p>By the way, CUFA BC was part of the governance reform effort in the 1990s that lead to the creation of Education Councils at the U-Cs, colleges and institutes (an effort initiated and led by then CIEA, now FPSE). Among other things we did to assist that effort was to pressure government to ensure that the U-Cs had a mandate for community-centered scholarly activity. </p>
<p>Moreover, we facilitated CIEA&#8217;s original provisional membership in CAUT and then fought on the floor of CAUT Council to create the category of membership that allowed CIEA to become a full member of CAUT. We also took a leadership role this past fall in amending the CAUT membership bylaws to keep CAUT focused on predominantly academic institutions (a move that was unpopular with our FPSE colleagues).</p>
<p>So, as I said in the beginning, there is a history and richness to all of this that is impossible to convey in the confines of a newspaper or magazine article. That doesn&#8217;t mean we shouldn&#8217;t try, because these are important issues.</p>
<p>In any event, as I noted above, the decisions have been made for BC and so it&#8217;s time to move on and focus on ensuring that the new universities get the resources they need to achieve their full potential. Just today at a faculty association meeting at UVic I was talking about the interesting approach TRU has taken to facilitate scholarly activity across all programs &#8212; academic, technology and career alike.</p>
<p>I hope all this helps you to better understand where we are coming from.</p>
<p>Cheers,</p>
<p>Rob</p>
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		<title>By: John Belshaw</title>
		<link>http://oncampus.macleans.ca/education/2008/04/23/from-college-to-university/comment-page-1/#comment-2613</link>
		<dc:creator>John Belshaw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Apr 2008 18:59:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oncampus.macleans.ca/education/2008/04/23/from-college-to-university/#comment-2613</guid>
		<description>Robert, you&#039;re digging yourself a deeper hole, chum.  All of the university-colleges (including the now-vanished OUC and UCC) have a thriving culture of inquiry.  With the exception of Kwantlen, they all have/had CAUT recognition and Tri-Council eligibility.  I know that most -- possibly all -- host at least one Canada Research Chair.  As a former UCC/TRU hand, I can tell you that SSHRC-funded research and CURA grants were a considerable part of our lives.  There is, to be sure, a vital culture of community-based and collarborative research which might be seen to matter more at the U-C&#039;s than at the older, larger universities, but curiousity-driven enquiry has been a part of their culture for years.
Regards,
John.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Robert, you&#8217;re digging yourself a deeper hole, chum.  All of the university-colleges (including the now-vanished OUC and UCC) have a thriving culture of inquiry.  With the exception of Kwantlen, they all have/had CAUT recognition and Tri-Council eligibility.  I know that most &#8212; possibly all &#8212; host at least one Canada Research Chair.  As a former UCC/TRU hand, I can tell you that SSHRC-funded research and CURA grants were a considerable part of our lives.  There is, to be sure, a vital culture of community-based and collarborative research which might be seen to matter more at the U-C&#8217;s than at the older, larger universities, but curiousity-driven enquiry has been a part of their culture for years.<br />
Regards,<br />
John.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert Clift</title>
		<link>http://oncampus.macleans.ca/education/2008/04/23/from-college-to-university/comment-page-1/#comment-2581</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Clift</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Apr 2008 02:33:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oncampus.macleans.ca/education/2008/04/23/from-college-to-university/#comment-2581</guid>
		<description>One correction and one amplification:

Correction - Cindy Oliver is the President of the Federation of Post-Secondary Educators of British Columbia.

Amplification - While I did indeed say that these institutions are not at present universities as CUFA BC defines them because they don&#039;t have a culture of inquiry, I did also say that such a culture could develop. Particularly if these institutions are properly funded.

No slight intended to Carson. He had to do a story quickly and the way this matter has developed in BC over the past few years is fraught with complexities and difficulties.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One correction and one amplification:</p>
<p>Correction &#8211; Cindy Oliver is the President of the Federation of Post-Secondary Educators of British Columbia.</p>
<p>Amplification &#8211; While I did indeed say that these institutions are not at present universities as CUFA BC defines them because they don&#8217;t have a culture of inquiry, I did also say that such a culture could develop. Particularly if these institutions are properly funded.</p>
<p>No slight intended to Carson. He had to do a story quickly and the way this matter has developed in BC over the past few years is fraught with complexities and difficulties.</p>
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