Do grades really matter?
A growing body of evidence suggests grades don't predict success -- C+ students are the ones who end up running the world
Back at Thornhill high school in the early 1970s, Mike Cowie and his brother Mark didn’t pay much attention to their school work. For one thing, the identical twins were working at a garage after school to pay for their cars. They were bored in the classroom and didn’t see any practical point in the curriculum. Why, for example, should they memorize a bunch of “common musical terms” from an eccentric music teacher who claimed he let his dog sit in the driver’s seat on the way to school? They emerged from high school with C-pluses and a few Bs, just enough to get into university. Their father gave each of them $600 for tuition on one condition — they get out of town.
Now, their old teachers may be surprised to learn that the Cowie brothers are among Canada’s most successful commercial real-estate brokers, doing mega-million-dollar real-estate deals for corporate Canada. From their modest offices in downtown Toronto, they can see some of the high-rise buildings they’ve helped clients buy, sell, lease or build. You’ve got to be able to read people, says Mark. “I look for little signs” — how they sit, how they hold their arms, what they do with their hands, which way they look. Just recently he saw a potential deal start to crater when a developer failed to look a prospective client in the eye as they were shaking hands. “I can understand inflections, how people say things,” says Mark. “You can tell if they’re hesitating.”
The Cowies’ success is the story your high school teacher may not want you to know. It’s the triumph of the C+ student, the guy who won’t be voted Most Likely to Succeed. He’s bored in class, and comes home with withering report cards that say things like, “If only he tried harder.” His eyes glaze over as his high school English teacher tries to whip up enthusiasm for Shakespeare. He gets lousy marks because he does not want to deliver what the teacher demands. But then, in university or maybe later, he turns on — and becomes so successful that the school brings him back to give speeches to the kids. High school marks, it turns out, do not predict how well you’ll do later in life.
High school marks don’t even predict how well you will do in first-year university, says James Parker, who holds the Canada Research Chair in emotion and health at Trent University. “In our culture, high school marks are the most important thing,” he says. “Yet if you look at success in first year, high school marks don’t predict that very well.” A decade ago, Parker started tracking students who arrived at Trent in first year and found that high school marks don’t even predict who’s going to drop out. “Lots of other things beside high school performance predict achievement later on.”
So there’s hope for the C+ student in high school. “The truth is that many indifferent students do extremely well in business because the set of skills required to be a good student does not match the set of skills to be a success in the world,” says Michael Thompson, a University of Chicago-trained psychologist and co-author of the bestseller, Raising Cain: Protecting the Emotional Life of Boys. He likes to quote the old line: “School is a place where former A students teach mostly B students to work for C students.” It may be an overgeneralization, but it has “more truth than educators are comfortable with,” he says.
As a psychologist, Michael Thompson spends a lot of time talking to anxious parents in Canada and the U.S. about their children’s performance in high school. He keeps telling them that a C+ does not mean the kid is headed for a dismal future. High school grades, after all, measure one thing — whether the teacher thinks the student has mastered the curriculum. But some kids, especially boys, are just not interested in delivering what the teacher wants. Boys, he says, often think school is “stupid, boring and inefficient,” says Thompson. “They’re just waiting for it to be over.” Girls, on the other hand, do better in school, even though they’re bored too, because they want to impress the teacher. Boys, he says, are more active, impulsive and impatient. “They support each others’ dislike for school.”
So the report card goes home with the C+ marks and the parents fume. Why won’t their son do his homework? Is he a loser? Maybe not.
The gross oversimplifications and exaggerations made in articles such as these, that believe in the flawed mantra that “C students” daily utilize as a bastion of hope: “School is a place where former A students teach mostly B students to work for C students.” never ceases to amaze me.
As with most other articles in this cliched and outdated genre, persuasive examples of “C students” who “made it big” and “run the world” are provided such as: George W. Bush, Winston Churchill etc. whereas the A and A+ students who made it big are left out. This is for one simple reason: the list of A and A+ students that run the world is larger by several orders of magnitude than that for C and C+ students.
Also conveniently left out when citing such examples is that the source of wealth and power for C and C+ students is often that they are born into a family that is already wealthy, influential, and powerful and sometimes have been for several generations. Tracing the histories of these families leads us to the first individuals that made the transition from being “unsuccessful” to “successful” who were almost always A or A+ students.
Also, it never ceases to make me laugh when editors and columnists like to throw in a snarky “so who has the last laugh now?” as if something significant has been achieved immediately after stating that C+ students roll in money and live in luxurious condos while A students toil as “intellectual serfs”. Any “A student” that reads such lines must laugh hysterically because they know that such a lavish and luxurious lifestyle is a prison of grandiose pressure and dilemmas as opposed to paradise and that such statements as “who has the last laugh now?” only prove that these C students have a life sentence in their prisons whereas “A students” have extracted the necessities of living a happy life and are far more successful as human beings for not having the simplemindedness that C students have built their entire lives on.
Moral of the story:
YES grades do really matter because A students find happiness and success in their wealth of knowledge and understanding which transcend the boundaries of humanized wealth and power which C students rarely reach, and when they do make a big deal out of it whilst failing to realizing they are puppets and front-men for “A students” without even knowing it.
Hey, watch it buddy, you could not be further from the truth! The fact that you think A students excel more than C students is far without measure! I could think of countless examples of all sorts of bug C student hotshots! SO BUG OFF! I don’t disregard either kind of student because intelligence is not necessarily knowing all the facts! That is why they have text books and manuals for formulas. Just think about it: what would have happened if the great things built were done just by memorization!! They would not be there very long!!!
Ezekial, I agree with your statement of over generalization and s implication of the article. However I also believe your own generalization is poor with the “pursuit of happiness” through knowledge. Obviously some do truly enjoy but there are others who do not.
There are also many “A students” tend to be through intense family/situational pressure. This tends to give them extreme stress and mental anguish, actually living a very unjoyful life.
The purpose of this article is to simply state that “Grades” in general do not consistently correlate to both success in: Material Wealth nor Contement with lifestyle (in this case pursuit of knowledge excellence).
Let this article have its joy as it is to help highly agitated parents realize there are many roads that leads to Rome.
Good luck getting into law school or med school with crappy grades.
Many examples used in the article are of the generic “Einstein example” where the kid is doing a poor job in school because he/she finds it boring and does not make an effort. I feel its safe to say the percentage of people who fall into this category make up less than 0.01% of the population.
Many C students are C students because they cannot achieve that A.
Have you ever considered the benefits of getting an A… like earnin a scholarship for example… learning for free… pursuing further education…
I wish students with B grade average would be more appreciated than A graders….. i mean….i try so hard to succeed in school. But I really do not think grades are all that important as long as we understand the meaning of the course we are taking. (im in grade 11 btw)
Maybe people with “crappy” grades dont intend to go to law school. For some people earning “A”s isnt that easy. In university I have “A”s “B”s and “C”s depending on the class. Somoe stuff comes easily to me while other stuff doesnt. I study hard in all my classes but in some of them an “A” is unattainable. Not everyone has their grades served to them on a silver platter and I am very proud of my B as I am my A
I think this article makes an excellent point but not the one some people are ranting about defending A grades and dividing people based on a letter and happiness. You missed the problem and point.
The problem is our education system. The “problem”: If someone is so creative that they can reinvent the world, redefine a profession and be labeled a “C student” or “dropout” in university, what is happening in our schools? These energies need to be put towards causes that do not have to do with making money or war but this is exactly where they end up going…look at Young’s comment. People that are criticizing this article are ironically feeding into its overall themes. Add something positive or experiential to the discussion instead of criticizing it. We know you are capable of getting “A’s” and defending your intellectual positions. But can you agree, add your own thoughts/experiences and contribute to the “project” or “problem”. If you can’t you’ll always be taking commands from someone that does.
Here is something for you “academics”. A person that tried to address this problem was a philosopher known as John Dewey. A good Wikipedia summary: Dewey was a relentless campaigner for reform of education, pointing out that the authoritarian, strict, pre-ordained knowledge approach of modern traditional education was too concerned with delivering knowledge, and not enough with understanding students’ actual experiences.
For those who disagree, because you are surely A+ students. I ask you: How successful have you been? And this is a serious question. I am just trying to compare opinions is all. Thanks guys.
The most successful people I know would be categorized as “C” students. In terms of net worth, and social influence and power over others.
I see some highly amusing posts here. Some state that you can’t get into higher education without good marks. OK, that’s obvious.
What the academics miss entirely is that C students aren’t interested in “getting a job” and then dreaming of a corner office as their next goal. A C student’s plans and visions are lofty, due to their early realization that the conformist infrastructure that schools represent is contrary to their instinctive libertarian values.
C students start companies. They make real, measurable things happen in life and the world. They realize that the mountains of impractical info foisted upon others in education “institutions” have no correlation to productivity and results.
I’m C student, and retired at age 32, due to success in sales, in my own business. I still work, but I certainly don’t have to. I get 5 hours of sleep a day if I’m lucky. Sleep is for people who have nothing amazing going on. My days are like non-stop ecxtasy!
Academics cling to theories, it’s all they have outside of their student loans. I cling to my cash, I admit.
But, like Henry Ford, if I lost it all, I could rebuild again without fear.
All of the education in the world – plus 1 dollar – will buy you a cup of coffee.
It’s no surprise to me that Academics are often liberals & democrats. Just delusional all around.
Mark Twain: “I have never let my schooling interfere with my education.”
I was fortunate to be raised around business, around money… and tangible accomplishment.
Academics, PLEASE learn to be responsible for yourselves and take care of your own affairs. It’s not the government’s job to steal from victorious C students like me through taxation to fund your egregious life choices. The sweetest fruit is from the trees you plant yourself.
If your teachers are so smart, ask them why they aren’t rich. Ask them why bartenders and vacuum cleaner salespeople earn more.
Criminology and Justice is my career and it was nor easy to earn this career If you believe inyourself you can do it
[...] December 8, 2009 by rilwan “School is a place where former A students teach mostly B students to work for C students.” via oncampus.macleans.ca [...]
“A and A+ students that run the world is larger by several orders of magnitude than that for C and C+ students.”
This is one of the dumbest comments I’ve heard in my entire life. Let’s see… The RICHEST man is the world is a college dropout. (William Gates).. The most respected(debatable) scientist failed much of school (Albert Einstein).
My personal opinion: Grades don’t reflect intelligence or success in life. They only reflect the work that you did in that particular class.
Bill Gates may have left university, but not because he did not excel academically — he aced his SATs, for example. Further, the idea that Albert Einstein did badly in school is a myth that arose from a misunderstanding of the grading system used in his school system.
My own view is that grades are a result of intellectual ability multiplied by willingness to work hard. The more you have of one, the more you can cover for the lack of the other. And if you have both, well, now we’re back to Gates and Einstein.
“Bill Gates may have left university, but not because he did not excel academically — he aced his SATs, for example. Further, the idea that Albert Einstein did badly in school is a myth that arose from a misunderstanding of the grading system used in his school system.”
Yeah, I’d like to see some proof of your reasoning. Your reasoning is only opinion. Just because you ace your SAT’s doesn’t give you a degree. The FACT is, Bill Gates dropped out of college.
Einstein may have done well in math, but tottally biffed it in history, languages, music and geography. Particularly French, he did really bad in.
I can’t believe that there are people that truly believe that you can measure intelligence with a letter.
Dropped out of college:
-Bill Gates
-Michael Dell
-Paul Allen
-Steve Jobs
-Ted Turner
-Scott Carpenter (astronaut- twice dropped out)
-John Glenn (astronaut and congressman)
-Charles Lindbergh
-JFK (dropped out of Princeton before attending Harvard)
-Robert Frost
-J. Paul Getty (oil tycoon)
-Rush Limbaugh
-Karl Rove
-Carl Bernstein
-Warreen Buffet (dropped out and returned)
Dropped out of HS:
-Jimmy Dean
-HG Wells
-Andrew Jackson (7th president, dude on $20 bill)
-Ray Charles
-Cher (but you can’t even tell!)
-Pierce Brosnan
-Ellen Burstyn
-Thomas Edison
-Peter Jenning
-Dizzy Gillespie
-Ansel Adams
-Julie Andrews
-Louis Armstrong
-Brooke Astor
-Jack Kent Cooke
-Robert De Niro
-Sonny Bono (former member of Congress)
The success of all these high school drop outs doesn’t say much for our public education system, does it?
Source(s):
http://www.education-reform.net/dropouts…
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/articl…
http://www.collegeotr.com/college_otr/fa…
http://www.collegedropoutshalloffame.com…
-Yahoo! Answers
It all depends on where you want/see/aspire to do with your life. If you have an ambition to be a manager, engineer, designer, social worker etc. and you know the educational path that will take you there, you are golden. I find that as a come closer to graduation that others still do not know what they want to do, which is completely fine, however this will directly affect your grades. If you are in a program/discipline you have no real interest in attaining a job in the future with, you may not try as hard to achieve the grades you need.
I am an example of the transition from a C student to A, being an engineering student in a 5 year program, I entered university having an interest in maths/science and engineering in general having a respectable average, however had no real clue as to what I could do as an engineer. So I basically coasted through my first 3 years getting grades from C to B-, not really putting in my full effort. It wasn’t until I actually got a co-op, and saw the influence I could have in the working world that I was motivated. Now in my past year I have achieved a A- average, and going on for a A+ in my final year.
Grades do matter if you are in a program you have a passion for, and what to excel in. However as for those that are mentioned above that dropped out of high school and university; they has the insight to know that the educational path they were taken was not going to take them where they wanted to go.
However, I must warn everyone that with this downturn in the economy, the number of people attaining higher education is increasing (In respect to getting Masters and PhD, at least from what I have been observing. No jobs, means more time to invest in the education system, which will make it very difficult to get a job in the future / and even now for that matter.
On the comment that C+ end up running the world, that is really subjective. And may be more true in the 70′s-80′s than it is today. With higher numbers of people attaining post-secondary education no one will simply rise up from a mail-room clerk job to a partner in a corporation nowadays. From the C+ students I had in my high-school days, it was really about a lack of motivation.
A person’s success starts way before school even starts..in the home and shaped by their surroundings. To me, School is like a babysitting class where the teacher keeps track of who can count and read on command, while your parents are at work. In short, successful people can come from all walks of life. Trust me. I’ve seen the best come from the gutter, vice versa.
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I was a c student, and I am by far more successful than my A student friends have become, simply because I have worked hard and made great investments and control my income where as my friends all work for someone and have peaked out on their incomes. Just because you get an A in high school does not make you work hard in the real world. The negative comments about C students lacking motivation is totally wrong, we had better things to do like make money. Intelligence is not decided by letter grade, some of the stupidest people I know and have met are educated people, they believe education is everything. As long as your happy you are successful, thanks to you A students who commented because I have lots of great B students working for me
This is rediculou. You can’t apply a universal standard of “sucess” to compare people with different levels of performance in school. Sucess is individual defined because it is only to the individual that it matters. If your version of sucess is money and power than you may be more sucessful in you own eyes that the career academic. However that academic may have a different definition for sucess in which they are more sucessful. Using your own definition of sucess on other people is foolish.
I just have 1 sentence.
WHAT about a C student from Harvard university. and an A student from lets say Colgate university or any other lower ranked university. DOES that mean anything? NO it doesnt!!!! grades dont detemine how you will lead your future. DOnt forget kids that college and high school is not a standard to place your life on!! Comon!! MY DAD was a C student from middle east technocal university in turkey ( he went there) and he is a VERY successful man. I myself average out at B my GPA is a 3.1 at my university. but i meet alot of A students who are dumb are pointless when it comes to teh real world. all they do is memorize books that would most likely vanish onc ethey finish class!!! DONT JUDGE A PERSON MY HIS COLLEGE SUCCESS. getting an A in a class doesnt mean you will use teh information in your practical life. it means you memorized and you got it. while a C student in most cases have a better grib of life and the world around him.
I was a C student in high school, but I’m not running a Fortune 500 company. Where did I go wrong?
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While I do agree that grades are not an amazing indicator of future success, I also believe that the author is grossly over-exaggerating and oversimplifying the matter. She appears to be saying for a large portion of the article that C students are destined for success, while A students will never get anywhere past being, say, a lawyer or doctor. In essence, she has implied that success is in fact inversely proportional to grades in school. Does anyone else see something wrong with that?
This is foolish. The problem is that typically the C student’s definition of success differs from the A student’s definition of success. So it is certainly possible for each to see themselves as more successful than the other. To argue over who is more successful is argument for the sake of argument – an activity that is enjoyable but at least choose a better topic.
Great posts all around, and the definition of success don’t vary as much as we’d like to think. Let’s be honest. Doing what we *really* want to do, having the funds to do what we want to do and the freedom would be considered successful for anybody. I do what I love to do, I have the freedom, I get to challenge myself, *and* I get to help more people with my company. The article is true as I have a friend who makes all A’s or close to it and he loves school and the system and he is very sheltered otherwise. He’ll no doubt be at a job or be a professor or something of the sort. And I helped him with his work. I hated and I still hate the school system as a lot of it is bs and it is really a massive business.
Grades don’t determine your success and neither does a degree. *You* do. Regardless of what grades you made or didn’t make.
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Ezekiel and others who agree with his thoughts. You are all under the assumption that the only way to have success in life is to get good grades and “get into med school or law school”, and then get a good job. The flaw there is that “good job” is an oxymoron. There is no such thing as a “GOOD” job. Success is measured in time not in money. That’s why A students go to school forever to continue building their knowledge to bless the rest of us with what they know, B students go to school long enough to learn from the A students how to get a “good” job, and C students tend to be the ones who make things happen on their own and build and create the businesses that everyone works for. Its a generalization, but a rather on the mark one at that.